Thanks for tuning into OTR Sean McBrearty is here helping to lead a statewide petition drive to block the state's two major utilities from making political contributions.

What's going on there?

Our lead story, an update on efforts to fix the roads.

And what does Dana Nessel want?

Around the OTR table this week Simon Schuster, Lauren Gibbons and Rick Pluta.

Sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record as made possible in par by Bellwether Public Relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

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And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome in Studio C on this Pure Michigan Friday morning.

Off the Record.

Kind of a weird news week.

I mean nothing really jumped out at me.

How about you guys?

It's summer.

Yeah, I guess summer is what it is.

Okay.

Hot laz days.

Lets chalk it up to that.

Let's talk about Mike Duggan.

All right.

Since he wants to, what does he want to do for the pay?

Well, so the legislature stalled on the statutory deadline deadline for adopting a state budget.

It's July 1st, but there are no consequences for the people who are supposed to get that done for blowing through that deadline.

So why would they put in a constant... Something to punish themselves?

And so but Mike Duggan, you know, kind of taking advantage of the situation.

And I also think, you know, plugging into what's supposed to be his you know, his strong suit and his message of quiet competence says, look, if these guys don't meet that deadline, you can't not pay them.

There would be issues ther because that's set in state law.

But you could say you're not go, we're going to hold on to your paychecks until you get it done.

And he rolled that proposal out.

I mean, just not too long before we're taping the show.

Yeah.

And I mean, you know, this is the beauty of an independent run for governo and also sort of the narrowness of the needle he has.

The threat is that you have to attack the status quo, which is not necessarily hitting solely Democrats and Republicans, but sort of the current state of affairs.

And so he can look at thi sort of bipartisan dysfunction and say, I want to do something that will punish both sides equally if they don't get along with, you know, making government functions smoothly.

Yeah I think it's one of those things where it could potentially gain traction.

I think where it would really start to matter and wher people might start to be on is if they look like they're going to miss the constitutional deadline, like this July 1st deadline.

Obviously it matters quite a bit to schools, to local governments, to all of the entities receiving state money that already had to star putting their budgets together.

But in terms of, you know, the government shutdown, that hasn't come yet.

So the urgency isn't quite there yet.

I don't think.

But let me throw some...

The same urgency.

The same urgency.

I mean, it's the schools are important.

Schools are out there banging the drum, trying to get people to pay attention.

But yeah, because, you know, we we have had government shutdowns or partial government shutdowns in the past.

And that's where you've got, you know, the drama of what's actually happening and not happening on the floor of the of the legislature.

Time out.

Who would have to pass this i order for this to take effect?

Oh, I see.

We see where you're going here.

I rest my case.

Okay.

This has two chances, slim and none.

But that doesn't.

And slime just left.

But that doesn't mean that someone can introduce a bill and then start being like, Here it is.

You could put it up for a vote any time, which again gives Mike Duggan that campaigning opportunity.

And let's not forget there i at least one sitting legislator in the crowd of candidates who are running for governor who, you know, maybe would also face pressure to do something and make a similar display of commitment to competence.

This is low hanging fruit for him.

Okay.

What I'm surprised that he hasn't been commenting all the way along here.

There's a plenty of fodder in this whole bailiwick, is there not?

Sure.

But I mean, again, this is the difficulty of running an independent campaign, is that at this early stage.

it Doesn't cost you anything to issue a press release.

No, and it didn't.

But you also have to be abl to show that you're running not as a Democrat or a Republican, but that you sort of wan to deal out this blame equally.

If you're solely knocking one party or the other, then you risk the the possibility of going into the general election with people saying, oh, he's just a Democrat in disguise or he's just... Well that's what they're going to say anyway.

That's the mantra the Rs are going to trot out on him We've got a Senate controlle by Democrats, a House controlled by a Republicans and a Democratic governor that I mean, you can't really say that No one no one could credibly say that, at least on this issue in particular, that he' pulling punches on the D side.

You know, and to your point, certainly it would be a very, very tough slog through the legislature, very unlikely to pass or get the super traction from either party.

But that's, you know, sort of the the strategy.

I think, to Simon's point, it' definitely one of those things that sounds good and it sounds like I'm coming in.

I want a budget to get done.

And so there may be some, you know, some.

If he wins.

And also to Simon's point, I mean, you'r just the star of the show Simon.

In that I mean there are already people asking, where has the governor been in all of this?

And if Mike Duggan starts, you know, banging that drum as well, then that also speaks to whether or not he's going to pull his punches on them.

How about Mr. Duggan saying if he really believes in this, how about a petition drive?

I have a lot of petition drives.

Yeah, but I think.

It also speaks.

To everyone could be standing in the same.

Corner.

I'm sure when you look at.

His tenure this I think this also speaks to Mike Duggan's political record.

When you look at his tenure as the mayor of Detroit, we've seen a concentration o power in the office of the mayor and his ability to sort of get the city council, sort of wrest them and bring them in the direction that he wants them to go in term of the development of the city.

And so I think part of this is also him expressing, you know, if you elect me for governor, I'm going to hav the legislature under my thumb and I'm going to make sure that they function smoothly whether or not they want to.

All right.

Quick answer.

Dana Nessel issue running for something, yay or nay?

No.

No, no.

I'm not seeing evidence of it.

All right.

Let's see if she is or not.

Look at this piece.

Democratic State Attorne General Dana Nessel has joined with other Democratic AGs around the country to fight President Donald Trump at almost every turn.

She continues on her legal battle to kill the Pipeline five projec under the streets of Mackinaw.

She wants to convict a former House speaker of wrongdoing, and she's charging the MEDC with stonewalling her probe into alleged misuse of state job investment spending.

In other words, she's very, very busy.

A lot of people are suspicious that this looks like a candidate in waiting, a candidate priming herself to run for something.

But Mr. Ballenger and countless others don't have any proof at any leve that she's running for anything, any higher office.

She could run for governor.

Three other Democrats are already in the hunt, or she could run for Gary Peters U.S. Senate seat.

Three other Democrats are already running for that.

Meanwhile, public relations executive and consultant John Truscott thinks the Senate bid is out.

But running for governor maybe in.

The Democratic fiel for governor is not that strong.

She's waiting to let this play out a little bit and then will will jump in kind of as the savior of the Democratic Party.

And run for governor.

The AG's office says she has not made up her mind about her future, but the betting money is well, depends on who you talk to.

I'm going to guess, is Dana Nessel running for something?

I would guess no.

But anything is possible.

I'd be willing to to write a big check that she' definitely running for office.

You don't just do the types of things that she's doing without some future aspirations in mind.

The only person who knows for sure is the person you're looking at.

And she's not talking.

Got you're big checkbook out?

Are you with the Truscott camp?

No.

I don't make campaign donations.

And my recommendation to you, Tim, is that you shouldn't either.

Should I be writing this stuff down.

Is this a career saver?

Is what you're telling me?

Something something like that.

Is Truscott onto something?

Well, I think that, you know, by sort of this analysis, we do risk sort of taking a pretty cynical outlook into what the role of the attorney general should be.

And the idea that, you know, the criminal and civil investigations that they undertake should be circumscribed by you know, political opportunity.

I think that if you look at like sort of the chemistry, the dynamics of a Democratic primary, we learn anything from this party.

Over the past eight years.

It's that they really are unwilling to eat their own.

And if you look at this media investigation, as it expands and becomes closer, closer to the governor's office, this is really something that has the opportunity to hurt.

Gretchen Whitmer's political capital.

And, you know, potentially what the investigation shows her political future.

And so as a result, I think that if we're going, you know, if Dana Nessel is going to sort of be off the chain, so to speak, in full force going to this investigation, it's not something that would necessarily go well with the the insularity that happens within these Democratic primaries.

And it's important to note that Attorney General Nessel has really positioned herself as the anti-Trump Democrat in the stat since his second term started.

We've seen Governor Whitmer try to wor with Trump on several occasions.

She obviously disagreed with him on some.

Which she will live to regret.

Which is what Mrs. Nessel said.

And and we have seen her disagree with him on some more recent stuff like the big, beautiful bill.

But Attorney General Nessel has been there.

You'r taking a very similar strategy as her first as his first term, challenging him at almost every opportunity.

In this term, It's been challenging the funding cuts, challenging, you know, a lot of different aspects of the Trump administration's priorities.

And so some people could read that as saying, hey, 2026, this might b a good opportunity for me, but she hasn't said anything.

So I'll I'll wait to see what she says.

If if we're going to be, you know, that cynical about it, then the play that Dana Nessel is making is to the Democrats progressive base, which isn't necessarily a winne going into a general election.

But you look at what I think you guys are right about her being the anti-Trump and you look at, you know, what she's up to.

She's working with other Democratic AGs across the country to file lawsuits against all kinds of Trump policies to try and stop in court what they can't seem to stop in in Congress.

And that seems to be, to me at least, to be the motivating facto in what she's up to right now.

Give her credit, she has kept this thing whatever she's going to do and maybe she hasn't decided, okay, I'm really close to the vets.

Usually in this town, if you work the phones hard enough you can find out what candidate, potential candidate A is doing from a whole bunch of people.

There ain't a whole bunch.

Well at this point.

I think that if there's any sort of like if there's another counterpoin against her running for office, it's the lack of expediency with which some of these investigations have played out in terms of the false electors for going on two years.

You know, nothing none o these cases have moved to trial.

Rick Snyder Yes, it could.

Yeah.

The Flint Water.

Yeah the the fatal errors with the Flint water crisis prosecution, and then also, of course, Lee and Stephanie Chatfield, this is also something that's played out over a span of years rather than months, which really takes the window of political opportunity here and diminishes it significantly.

And to the question, you know, that you asked that you're kind of at the point in in the cycle that you don't really want to be coy about what your ambitions are, is that you want your name out there probably focused on a particular office, but certainly just a small number to try and get a coalition coalescing around it.

But if Mr. Truscott is right in the field of for the Democratic nomination for governor disintegrates, she gets on her white horse and she rides in.

So that's a possibility as well.

Not saying it will happen.

That's a remote possibility.

All right.

Very quickly, on the road package, the word that we're picking up this week is there is a potential they've not decided this, but the goal was $3 billion to fix the roads.

They're now talking about changing the target.

If we make a $2 billion boys and girls, we could declare victory and go home.

What do you think of that?

Well, I think the Republicans have a major target in terms of funding sources here, which is a central piece of Governor Gretchen Whitmer's agenda, these key economic development accounts that she sort of places part of her legacy.

If those get, you know, caught in the crossfire on a roads package, then it's a it's politically pretty damaging for her.

I think.

I think a lot of people in the industry would say we'd be happy to see any long term funding.

They'll take to $2 million in a second.

They'll take it.

But that said, it's if there's still this gap in funding that we're seeing from all of the studies, from all of the reports, it's still there's still going to be some people complaining about the qualit of their roads.

They come back after the election and raise the extra billion.

There you go.

Yeah.

Sure.

Maybe.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would count on that.

Tim, go ahead and also They said that in 2015 as well.

Right.

And are pot and vapes really a long term funding solution that you want to rely on?

Rick, you don't understan this is not about a long term.

This is getting over the hump and getting her out of office with a legacy signed, sealed and delivered.

What happens after me is their problem.

I still stand by the question.

Well right and I still stand by the answer.

All right.

Let's call in the gu who's running a petition drive to go after DTE Energy and Consumers Energy.

How come?

Let's find out.

Welcome to Off to Record a petition drive.

Do you realize what you're getting into?

I think I do.

Thanks so much for having me Tim.

Yes.

And yeah, I mean, our coalition has been working on this policy for quite a long time.

For the last two legislatures, we've had bills introduced to do what we're working to do with this ballot initiative.

And wherever we go across the state, talking to regular folks about this, we find across Michiga in the last year how many people have had a power outage at home in the last year, how many people have had their power rates rise when it comes to the government contractor side of the work that we're doing, how many people have had coverage denied by an insurance company that their doctor said was medically necessary?

Far too many.

There's things our state government can do about it.

The reason those aren't getting done is because these companie are pouring millions of dollars into buying our government because it's cheaper than providing the services they're supposed to provide.

With all due respect, some might argue you have to have proof that something wrong has gone on here.

You could have a political point of view.

We don't agree what they're doing, but what surely the proof that there's this system is simply not working and is broken?

Well, since we've seen the corrosive influence of corporate money on our political system continue to grow, we've seen this increase polarization across the board.

We've also seen in the case what we're working to do with this ballot initiative is not to ban all corporate money from politics.

We're working to do what we can within the bounds of existing law, which is to sto those corporations that derive such a large percentage of their profits from their dealings with government group like Consumers Energy and DTE, which Michigan residents right now are paying the highest bills in the Midwest for some of the most unreliable service.

And the reason those companies aren't being held accountable is because in 2022, DTE for instance, donated to 138 out of 148 state lawmakers in 2023, it was 119 out of 148 state lawmakers.

So?

If I may interject, corporations can't legally give directly to candidates campaigns.

These are employee PACs that are made up of donations from the employees of the companies making voluntary contributions.

How can you invalidate that without running around the First Amendment?

But he's not wrong about the the point at least is a legality.

Yeah, absolutely These are dark money entities.

And part of the problem we're dealing with here is that what they're doing is totally legal.

In order to break the law, they pretty much have to walk up to a lawmaker with a bag of cash and say, this is in exchange for your vote on X bill.

The people of Michigan are smart enough to see through the facts and to see that, like, for instance, last term when residents in Detroit were without power for weeks during a winter storm DTEs PAC or DTEC4, rather, donating $100,000 to Speaker Joe Tate's C4.

Somehow made the utility accountability bills go away.

I guess I'm curious, you know, why why take the dark money route as opposed to proposing a ballot initiative that would tackle some of the policies or some of the concerns that you have with the utilities actions?

Well, this isn' strictly targeted at utilities.

We are working to stop both monopoly utilities like DTE and Consumers, as well as government contractors who have contracts greater than $250,000.

Like Blue Cross Blue Shield.

Yes.

And other insurance companies and lots of other big corporations from being able to continue to buy government services instead of improving the services they're supposed to provide for the people.

But I think to the question that you were just asked is, you know, it's axiomatic that campaign money is like water, that you block it somewhere, it will still find a path.

How do you deal with blocking that path?

Well, we are working through language right now.

And then in the coming weeks, we're really excited to share our final language with both the State Bureau of Election as well as the people.

And we're working to block the pathways that we legally can.

You know, and there's precedent for this at both at the federal level and in other states.

Michigan is constantly ranke near the bottom of the country as far as government ethics and transparency.

And from what we've heard across the state, people are fed up both, you know, folks who voted for Donald Trump, folks who voted for Kamala Harris, a lot of folks who didn't vote are fed up with our government being bought by these big corporations.

And this is what we can do to stop it.

We worked the legislative angle for two years.

We got nowhere during a Democratic trifecta.

We haven't gotten anywhere this term either.

And so we're taking this straight to the people to let the people decide whether or not these companies should be able to continue to buy influence.

So Joe Tate has five onesie for dark money account.

If you asked hi if he controlled that account, he'd probably say no.

Same goes for Consumers Energy and DTE in their own 501C4 dark money accounts.

How do you get over that legal hurdle?

How do you provide that separate that degree of affiliation?

Well, you know, we are again working out our final language and we are excited to share that as soon as it's ready.

But when you take, DTE for instance, when their C4 has their lobbyist, as I think the president or the president of the board and several of their corporate board members are on the board of the C4, you're kind of looking at the same organization.

They can say it's not controlled.

Sure.

But well, let's talk practical politics.

Would you agree that if this was a single issue on the ballot in November 2026, it's chances of passing would be higher than if it's on the ballot with six other issues?

Well, you know, I know in 2012 we saw a vote no on everything campaign that was very effective And they can to do it again.

And we're in a way, different political moment today I think, than we were in 2012.

Now, you know, with the massive changes we're seeing at the federal level, the inaction we're seeing from a lot of folks at the state level a lot of folks have had enough.

And we're hearing that again from people across the state regardless of party affiliation.

And I think, you know, I think it's telling that the two the only two lawmaker who have spoken out about this as a ballot initiative fro the beginning are Representative Dillon Regalia, the Democratic Socialist, and also Representative Jim DeSanto from, I believe, the Freedom Caucus, our left in the far right.

You know, and I'm hopeful that we're going to get regular people across the state to get this done.

You talked about how long you've been working on this, and I'm just wondering from at least your perception, did term limits help your cause hurt your cause, or was it irrelevant?

You know, I don't really.

So the changes in the ter limit law that we had recently I think will be helpful in the long term.

Institution of the legislature.

I think the fact that they kind of skirted around the transparency requirements that we're supposed to be in there that wound up being, you know, these transparent reporting requirements that don't require dolla amounts or sources in some cases is kind of a joke.

It's not really what the peopl were asking for at the ballot.

But however I don't think that that's going to have a bearing on this one one way or the other.

But by the same token, this is an initiative that the lawmakers would have a chance to do and they could do the same thing to you.

Well, they couldn't adopt an amend, luckily, thanks to the recent Michigan Supreme Court ruling.

If they want to adopt a polic exactly as is great, have at it.

The chances of that are?

Slim to none.

And I think, as you said earlier Tim, slim just walked out the door.

So let's talk.

How are you going to gather names?

You're not going to pay for them?

No, we're going to do this the grassroots way.

We have wonderful organizations across the state who are part of our coalition.

And we're already training volunteers.

Folks who are interested can go to mop up Michigan dot org and sign u to volunteer with the campaign.

And they'll be trained on how to collect signatures.

And we're going to go everywhere we can across the state, talking to the regular folks and get signatures.

You know, the old fashioned way by building a coalition.

I want to go back to your earlier point.

I've heard from government transparency happens all the time.

Michigan is one of the worst, you know one of the worst in the country.

One of the worst in the country.

Are any other states doing what you're proposing or something similar to it?

And are there any tangible ways that this policy would bring us up in that in that ranking?

Yes.

So, first of all, one of the things that's included within the polic that we're pushing is bringing our C-4 issue ad loophole up to federal standards.

And that's actually going to do a lot around transparency, because right now, if a 501C4 organization is running what's essentiall a political ad, as long as they don't say magic words like vote for or against X candidate, that's not something that has to be reported.

And so we're working to make it so that if it's an obvious electioneering communication that has to be reported as an, as an election expenditure, which would increase us, probably increase our ratings on transparency with banning the money, that's going to, I think, do wonders towards actually making a government that's accountable to the people, because right now to many lawmakers are accountable to their big donors who pay for the campaigns and not to the constituents who they have bee elected to represent.

I want to.

But are any other states doing something similar?

Other state have similar laws on the books.

Delaware does.

Hawaii.

Excuse me.

Connecticut does.

Hawaii does.

I believe there's seven states total with similar policies.

The federal government actuall has a policy against contractor expenditures in elections, s none of this is unprecedented.

I want to clarify that point beyond Michigan's utilities, you want to have a state reporting requirement for all 501C4 electioneering ads that are broadcast in the state.

Yes.

Okay.

Since the election period, Yes.

Gotcha.

And what is that?

Just recently, like lik within 90 days of an election?

You know, I'm not sure that we hav the exact number worked out yet, but it's going to be something similar to that.

Do you expect the other side to take you to court first, to challenge that language, to keep you off the ballot?

You smiled.

Well you know, I think, for instance, if we go back to 2018 with the voters in our politicians ballot initiative to change our redistricting system, we saw that get taken to court with some pretty spurious claims.

And the whole reason groups do that is because it's cheaper to try even a long sho court case than it is to fight.

So you expect that to happen?

I wouldn't be surprised.

And what are the chances if this gets on the ballot that it passes?

Do you have internal data that says this is just off the charts?

Yes.

This is, you know one of the most popular issues I've seen in the Michigan.

What's the percentage?

86.

86%?

After message.

So 79% before messaging, 86 after.

You don't have anything to do then.

Does your does that dat include negative messaging?

Yes.

Just your what's the strongest negative message that you'd be looking out for?

It's what you said.

Money is like water.

They'll find a way, but the people have a right to try to block that.

Thank you, sir, for showing up.

Yeah Thank you.

Keep us posted, okay?

Sure will, I'll bring signatures over.

Well, don't bring them here.

Okay.

Thanks for tuning in, folks.

We'll see you wit more Off the Record next week.

Bye bye.

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